Curse

faraaz · Feb 17, 2009, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

You're stating that PvE-only skills and consumables dumb all the content.

You don't like dumb games. So if the consumables and PvE-only skills were removed the game wouldn't be dumb anymore.

Since you can play without them, when you do the game isn't dumb.

So what you're saying is that you don't like the option other people have to make their game dumb.

Right?

I like what this guy has to say.

Seriously, quit bitching about how PvE skills and Cons need to be removed from the game. If you do that, you're going to be the only 10 or so HARDCORE ELITE players left giving a damn about the game.

DreamWind · Feb 17, 2009, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

You don't like dumb games. So if the consumables and PvE-only skills were removed the game wouldn't be dumb anymore.

Since you can play without them, when you do the game isn't dumb.

So what you're saying is that you don't like the option other people have to make their game dumb.

Right?

I cringe every time I see this argument still being used. Don't people understand how horrible the "don't like it don't use it" argument is? Please somebody explain it, because I am tired of constantly having to do so on these forums.

Let me just put it simply....ignoring the problem doesn't mean the problem isn't there or goes away.

Tyla · Feb 17, 2009, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by faraaz

I like what this guy has to say.

Seriously, quit bitching about how PvE skills and Cons need to be removed from the game. If you do that, you're going to be the only 10 or so HARDCORE ELITE players left giving a damn about the game.

Tell me why I should quit bitching. Until then I'll tell you to quit bitching about us bitching about a problem trying to do something about said problem while you just pull others away from the task.

kostolomac · Feb 17, 2009, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Let me just put it simply....ignoring the problem doesn't mean the problem isn't there or goes away.

PvE skills and cons aren't a problem. They are a option , use it or don't if you want.

The problem with people being bad is because they don't experience many things good players did , mostly failure. And when they do fail they don't want to know why did they fail. Another problem is that new players don't understand how and why something works. Most people who use sabway don't know why sabway is so powerful. And IMO that's the biggest problem and biggest obstacle to pass.

Improvavel · Feb 17, 2009, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I cringe every time I see this argument still being used. Don't people understand how horrible the "don't like it don't use it" argument is? Please somebody explain it, because I am tired of constantly having to do so on these forums.

Let me just put it simply....ignoring the problem doesn't mean the problem isn't there or goes away.

What problem?

Game being too easy for you because of PvE-only skills and consumables?

But hey you can solve that problem by yourself!

You are saying:

"It is raining. I've an umbrella. I can open the umbrella to stop being wet. But I wont. We need to stop the rain instead so no one gets wet. I don't care if they want to get wet! They can't get wet cause I say so!"

Stop trying to solve other people problems. Other people can make their own choices too.

I'm sorry but you aren't a GOD to make decisions for other people.

If other people want to be good at the game they will do it. If they don't want they won't.

And you cant do shit about it!

DreamWind · Feb 17, 2009, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

PvE skills and cons aren't a problem. They are a option , use it or don't if you want.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

What problem?

Yes...they are a problem. Was Ursan not a problem because I had the choice to not use it? You guys have ridiculous arguments claiming that not using the problem is going to make the problem go away. People need to get over this selfish way of thinking. People like me and others who think the crap shouldn't exist are looking at the game as a whole.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

You are saying:

"It is raining. I've an umbrella. I can open the umbrella to stop being wet. But I wont. We need to stop the rain instead so no one gets wet. I don't care if they want to get wet! They can't get wet cause I say so!"

Stop trying to solve other people problems. Other people can make their own choices too.

No, I'm attempting to solve the games problems, not people's problems. Using your analogy, it would be like a constant rain coming down and the inbalanced crap is the umbrella. There are some people that have to use a crutch (the umbrella) to go through the rain, but people like me who don't use umbrellas realize that somebody is capable of making the rain go away altogether. Now which is better?

Improvavel · Feb 17, 2009, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Yes...they are a problem. Was Ursan not a problem because I had the choice to not use it? You guys have ridiculous arguments claiming that not using the problem is going to make the problem go away. People need to get over this selfish way of thinking. People like me and others who think the crap shouldn't exist are looking at the game as a whole.

No ursan wasn't a problem because everyone was finishing elite areas. Ursan caused grind, caused rank discrimination, made all other professions irrelevant. That was why it was a problem.

Did it affect my game in any way? No.

Quote:

No, I'm attempting to solve the games problems, not people's problems. Using your analogy, it would be like a constant rain coming down and the inbalanced crap is the umbrella. There are some people that have to use a crutch (the umbrella) to go through the rain, but people like me who don't use umbrellas realize that somebody is capable of making the rain go away altogether. Now which is better?

Then say: "Gws need a major revision. Loads of areas need to be remade, mobs need to be balanced, environmental effects and monster only skills need to be looked at, areas like doa and some dungeons are just bad designed."

If you say that while saying PvE-only skills and consumables are bad for the game, then I will applaud you and say the same at your side.

But you aren't saying that. And you know that at this time it won't happen.

So saying Pve-only skills and consumables should be removed is the same as saying you don't want other people to obtain skins and titles because they will make yours less worthy.

DreamWind · Feb 17, 2009, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

No ursan wasn't a problem because everyone was finishing elite areas. Ursan caused grind, caused rank discrimination, made all other professions irrelevant. That was why it was a problem.

Did it affect my game in any way? No.

Ursan caused grind? LoL. Ursan was a problem because it was completely inbalanced and allowed people to do things they shouldn't normally be able to do, which is exactly what we have with PvE skills/consumables. I think the whole point and the reason this was brought up in the first place is because the difficulty balance of this game is out of whack.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Then say: "Gws need a major revision. Loads of areas need to be remade, mobs need to be balanced, environmental effects and monster only skills need to be looked at, areas like doa and some dungeons are just bad designed."

If you say that while saying PvE-only skills and consumables are bad for the game, then I will applaud you and say the same at your side.

I am saying that, but we have to start where we can. We should fix what we can fix easily. Saying "well since the major problems that need to be fixed won't be fixed we might as well leave in the minor problems since the game is broken anyways" is not a good way to look at things.

Bryant Again · Feb 17, 2009, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Right?

Wrong.

I don't see a single acceptable reason for making the hardest difficulty into the easy difficulty make any sense when people already have the easy difficulty. Would you see any good reason for a player advocating the 100% difficulty (hardest) in Oblivion to be as simple as the 0%?

fireflyry · Feb 17, 2009, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I'd find ANet's current situation much more understandable if there hadn't been hundreds of games that have been hugely successful that didn't dumb all the content down to such an inane state. It's different when you have only one set level of difficulty/accessiblity, but this is a problem ANet has made much easier to overcome.

Agreed but is'nt that what GW is all about?

Make it relatively easy to get to maximum potency/level, unlike other games where it takes a few months to get to level cap and a few months more to get the uber gear you need to compete or be even remotely relevant end-game?

Kind of hard to have easy access and progression for new players or title farmers on one hand while trying to force skill based play with the other.

Not saying it's not possible, just that it's way to late.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

These are situations where consumables are very usefull to make sure everyone can play together as much as possible.

Yes but that is a minority use, unfortunately.

It may well have been the original intent, though I doubt it, but if you give such tools and options to the community the first thing they will do is exploit it for their gain especially in a game where repetition of content is rewarded above all else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

"It is raining. I've an umbrella. I can open the umbrella to stop being wet. But I wont. We need to stop the rain instead so no one gets wet. I don't care if they want to get wet! They can't get wet cause I say so!"

I think you missed the point that was, I thought, put to bed a long time ago.

Stating such choices are optional adds nothing of merit to the discussion as people are talking about the actual mechanics and the effect on the game as a whole, not the fact these mechanics are optional.

Seems to go right over a lot of heads.

Regardless of that would you take a knife to a gunfight?

Players shouldn't have to gimp themselves to make the game a challenge.Silliest thing I've ever heard of.

kostolomac · Feb 17, 2009, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

Players shouldn't have to gimp themselves to make the game a challenge.Silliest thing I've ever heard of.

Every area is over a year old , even more. There is no chance a veteran or even a decent player can find challenge now unless ANet gives us more new and never seen before content. In a game where you fight AI mastering something new and unique is the ultimate challenge and not killing the same shi*t with just more HP, armor and damage. When the game is so old gimping yourself intentionally or not is the only challenge if you don't count titles.

Improvavel · Feb 17, 2009, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

Players shouldn't have to gimp themselves to make the game a challenge.Silliest thing I've ever heard of.

But if Anet gimp everyone it's ok.

I got you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Wrong.

I don't see a single acceptable reason for making the hardest difficulty into the easy difficulty make any sense when people already have the easy difficulty. Would you see any good reason for a player advocating the 100% difficulty (hardest) in Oblivion to be as simple as the 0%?

OK, so you are telling me that if Anet removed those skills and forbid consumable from HM you would be happy, but must be Anet doing it because you can't do it.

Bryant Again · Feb 17, 2009, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

Agreed but is'nt that what GW is all about?

Make it relatively easy to get to maximum potency/level, unlike other games where it takes a few months to get to level cap and a few months more to get the uber gear you need to compete or be even remotely relevant end-game?

Kind of hard to have easy access and progression for new players or title farmers on one hand while trying to force skill based play with the other.

Not saying it's not possible, just that it's way to late.

That is indeed the whole point of Guild Wars, further showing that the addition of PvE skills and the like was the *wrong* way to go. If they wanted to stay truer to their premise they could've simply reduced the time required to get to that peak. But as I've stated already, PvE skills were the completely wrong way to solve the problem.

And what's going to cause more trouble: having to cater to two separate game settings, or to one?

@directly above me: wot?

Edit: I think I kind of get what you're saying - but no, I still wouldn't be happy.

Improvavel · Feb 17, 2009, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

And what's going to cause more trouble: having to cater to two separate game settings, or to one?

They were already there PvE and PvP.

Quote:

@directly above me: wot?

Edit: I think I kind of get what you're saying - but no, I still wouldn't be happy.

So from that I infer that you don't want more challenge for you per se if it isn't accompanied from an increase in difficulty to everyone else.

What you want is a pyramid structure of players, where only the top can do the elite areas.

Bryant Again · Feb 17, 2009, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

They were already there PvE and PvP.

Then hey, I'll rephrase:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

And what's going to cause more trouble: having to cater to two separate PvE game settings, or to one?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

OK, so you are telling me that if Anet removed those skills and forbid consumable from HM you would be happy, but must be Anet doing it because you can't do it.

I'm not sure what the 2nd part means, but I can reply to the first part.

As I said above, no I wouldn't be happy if they simply removed their use from HM. It would make the transition for players from NM to HM that much more difficult.

DreamWind · Feb 17, 2009, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

So from that I infer that you don't want more challenge for you per se if it isn't accompanied from an increase in difficulty to everyone else.

What you want is a pyramid structure of players, where only the top can do the elite areas.

Yes, that is exactly what the game needs. Only the most skilled should be able to do elite areas, hence the reason they are called elite. The more experienced players should do hard mode and the newer or less experienced should do normal mode. This idea that everybody should be able to do whatever they want and people should have to gimp themselves for a challenge is ludicrious.

Improvavel · Feb 17, 2009, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

This idea that everybody should be able to do whatever they want

We can't have that can we?

I guess what we need is a pre-buy exam to evaluate people IQ and ability with a mouse.

Then sell different packages accordingly.

Bryant Again · Feb 18, 2009, 12:03 AM // 00:03

Or provide different difficulty levels.

Those who are inexperienced can play in normal mode. Those who are a bit more adept can stay in hard mode. The people still saying "hard mode is too hard" are those who want a bite at the rewards without the proper effort and skill, don't listen to them.

Actually that's incorrect: *do* listen to them, but not just their pleas, their arguments.

Akaraxle · Feb 18, 2009, 07:26 AM // 07:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Those who are inexperienced can play in normal mode. Those who are a bit more adept can stay in hard mode. The people still saying "hard mode is too hard" are those who want a bite at the rewards without the proper time, don't listen to them.

Fix'd.

If you guys guys think HM is not challenging enough, why don't you stay true to the original game design and come PvP? The meta is stale and competition is dead: we could sure use some new blood to liven things up. If you don't find challenging (which I doubt), seek me out and I'll try to make it so for you.

Improvavel · Feb 18, 2009, 12:10 PM // 12:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

If you guys guys think HM is not challenging enough, why don't you stay true to the original game design and come PvP? The meta is stale and competition is dead: we could sure use some new blood to liven things up. If you don't find challenging (which I doubt), seek me out and I'll try to make it so for you.

You think they want challenge?

They want admiration, not challenge.